[Read the original article in this week’s Ithaca Times]
The National are becoming stars the old-fashioned way: through relentless touring, years of hard work, and solid musicianship. Their 2005 full-length Alligator was a mild underground success, but it was not until this springs’ ambitious rock album Boxer that The National jumped into the musical spotlight (Bruce Springsteen is a fan). Boxer is full of moody, surprisingly heartfelt ballads, and many critics have already deemed the album one of the best of 2007.
The Brooklyn-based quintet, led by baritone Matt Berninger, also features two sets of brothers, Aaron (guitar/bass/piano) and Bryce Dessner (guitar) and Scott (drums) and Bryan Devendorf (guitar). Brooklyn has been home to these Cincinnati, Ohio natives for nearly a decade — Aaron and Bryce Dessner are neighbors with Sufjan Stevens, who also lives in the borough Ditmas Park (and guests on Boxer); Berninger lives in Clinton Hill.
Though the band has been heavily touring for the past three years, they’ve maintained ties to local Brooklyn and Manhattan scenes. The National will make their first trip to Ithaca this Saturday when they headline a free concert at Cornell University. We spoke to guitarist Aaron Dessner the day after they had finished an exhausting 14-hour music video shoot for “Apartment Story.” Dessner talked about the success of Boxer, his varied musical influences, and the bands democratic songwriting process.
Popcorn Youth: You guys have kept a pretty hectic schedule lately. How are you doing?
Aaron Dessner: I’m okay, I’m a little tired. We’ve been in Europe, and then we had a show on Friday, and then we shot a video yesterday for “Apartment stories.” It took 14 hours so I’m a little tired.
Popcorn Youth: Can you me a little history regarding your move to Brooklyn? This was in the late 90s?
Dessner: Well yes, thereabouts. We all moved at different times, when we weren’t actually a band yet. I moved in 1994 for school, and most of us were here by 1998. We weren’t a band until later, really, so it wasn’t like we moved for the band — it was more for work.
Popcorn Youth: What were you studying?
Dessner: Well, I studied modern European history and cultural anthropology at Columbia. But I graduated and I didn’t really do anything with that, though. (Laughs)
Popcorn Youth: Where in Brooklyn do you live now?
Dessner: A couple of us live in Ditmas Park, Brooklyn, which is near Prospect Park, a little way off. Matt [Berninger] lives in Clinton Hill, but we’ve lived all over. We seem to keep moving further and further out…
Popcorn Youth: Have you witnessed a major change in Brooklyn music scenes since you moved to New York?
Dessner: Brooklyn has gentrified a huge amount since we’ve been here. I first moved to Brooklyn 1998, and I lived in Cobble Hill where there was one restaurant, this one bourgeois restaurant. And now on that street — Smith Street — there’s 100 restaurants, and it is crazy. But I don’t know about a music scene; it’s NYC, and there’s such a vast amount of music being produced that it’s hard to quantify or explain how it’s changing. But I would say that a lot of musicians are leaving Brooklyn because they can’t afford to have practice space here… But we’ve never really thought of ourselves as a “New York Band,” really, because we’re just from Ohio.
Popcorn Youth: They’re leaving Manhattan or Brooklyn too?
Dessner: They’re actually leaving Brooklyn because it’s so expensive. But we don’t really … we’ve never really thought of ourselves as a “New York band,” really, because we’re just from Ohio. There was a scene, I think, a couple of years ago with the Yeah Yeah Yeahs and the Liars, and that felt a little bit like a Brooklyn scene. We have a lot of friends that are in bands, but it’s not like we hang out all the time together or anything like that, so it’s not really like a “scene.”
Popcorn Youth: Do you encounter many displaced Midwesterners in NYC?
Dessner: Yes, definitely. A lot of my friends are from Ohio, and there are a lot of people from the Midwest that migrate.
Popcorn Youth: Does being Midwestern affect the way you create or think about music?
Dessner: Hmm. Probably, it does. Having been exposed to a lot of country music and bluegrass music and classic American rock — The Band, Grateful Dead, Bob Dylan. There’s also a lot of great indie rock from Ohio, like Guided By Voices.
There have always been really good local Cincinnati bands — back then, there was Over the Rhine, Brainiac. But we lived in really suburban homes and made music in our neighborhoods. (Laughs) We were in high school, and so I didn’t really go out a lot. I think our music is definitely very American, but I’m not sure how “Midwestern” it is.
Popcorn Youth: Do you find that Brooklyn is an inspiring place to create music and a supportive community?
Dessner: Yes. We have a lot of friends that are musicians and we can access a lot of amazing people to put on our albums, and feature lots of different instrumentation like brass and woodwinds and strings, and all those people live in Brooklyn.
Popcorn Youth: I understand that Bryce played in a guitar quartet that performs Alan Licht compositions. Could you tell me more about that?
Dessner: Yeah. My brother had this electric guitar, but he’s also a classical musician and performed a lot of composed music. And Alan Licht used to book shows at Tonic and do shows there, and Bryce did a lot of shows there too, so they became friends. And Alan is a really great guitar player, so it just progressed and Bryce played in that electric guitar quartet. And there are a lot of examples like that, of us [interacting] with a lot of musicians in New York or Brooklyn. Sufjan Stevens lives a few blocks from us, and that’s how we became friendly. And then some of us played on his album, and then he was on our album, [Boxer]. There’s lot of examples of things like that happening — it’s a very nurturing environment.
Popcorn Youth: How hard is it to follow the different local music communities in Brooklyn?
Dessner: I feel like in the past three years we’ve been so busy writing and playing and touring — and we’ve been touring a lot — that I feel a little out of it as far as new things happening here. (Laughs) Although we are probably one of the more popular bands now, it’s not like I have much time to check things out. Because if I’m home, it’s only for two weeks and I basically just collapse. But it doesn’t surprise me that there’s basically any kind of music you can imagine. There are so many musicians and bands and scenes that you’re bound to have interesting things happen.
Popcorn Youth: Are you currently working on any other side projects?
Dessner: Well, a French filmmaker has made a film about us and Boxer. We’re working on an EP of new songs to come out with it in the spring. So we’ll start working on songs, maybe, and it’s possible we don’t get to do it; it’s possible we’ll be too tired. (Laughs)
Popcorn Youth: I understand that you and Bryce have also played in Clogs.
Dessner: Yeah, sometimes I do, yeah.
Popcorn Youth: Do you know former Clogs collaborator Tim Feeney?
Dessner: Yes, yes, I do. I don’t know him well, but my brother knows him pretty well.
Popcorn Youth: He actually just moved to Ithaca — he’s a professor at Cornell now, and he’ll be teaching percussion in the music department beginning this fall.
Dessner: Oh, wow, cool. Yeah, that’s funny. He played with Clogs, and we’re going to make a new Clogs record soon, actually. There are always things that we’re working on, different projects. Any chance to play music outside The National is always a good idea. (Laughs) So we’re not too one-dimensional. (Laughs)
Popcorn Youth: Do you see The National following in the grand tradition of classic rock or do you see it fitting within a continuum of modern indie rock?
Dessner: Probably both. As a band, we try to write songs that we can live with and that don’t get tired. And the artists that we are most inspired by are classic artists, like Neil Young and Bob Dylan and great classic rock bands like The Beatles or Joy Division — bands whose music have stood up for a long time, bands that have a timelessness to what they do.
When we’re working on new music, we try to write songs that we can keep coming back to, and that we don’t get tired of. A lot of the time, that means that we throw out the catchiest and the most obvious ones, and then we kind of fall in love with the odd ducks. For some reason, they feel unique and timeless. In that sense, I think we are looking back towards the classic rock bands. But at the same time, we definitely are still very much a part of independent rock music, both because we essentially play indie rock, and we’re on an independent label, and we play and tour, and we’re friends with a lot of the people that are in that milieu.
Popcorn Youth: At this point in your career, what does it feel like to be touted as “the next big thing”? Did you ever envision a day when The National might be heralded by some as the next Coldplay or even the next U2?
Dessner: Hmm. Well, no, not that big. I don’t think we make mainstream music in that sense — it’s still challenging, in some ways. We avoid overselling the pop hooks that would help us on mainstream radio. But that being said, it had grown a lot since. And in some countries, maybe [our band] is mainstream. So that’s exciting.
I don’t think we have our sights set on any particular goal, except all we really want to do is make songs and keep playing and feeling inspired. We want to make a connection with an audience where we feel like the dynamic is one where everyone’s enjoying [our music] and we enjoy playing — and if that audience is very large, then that’d be great, but if it’s small, well that’s just as great. (Laughs)
Popcorn Youth: How have you seen your audience change?
Dessner: Well, first of all, it’s grown. We’ve gone from worrying if anyone was going to be there to being sold out. And sometimes we’re shocked at the number of people that come.
Popcorn Youth: Even still?
Dessner: Well, yeah, because it keeps growing and that’s exciting and kind of surprising. You see all different kinds of people and I like that. Sometimes we play different countries and sometimes the audience is sometimes an older audience and sometimes there’s a younger audience. It’s surprising to see who wants to see you play.
Popcorn Youth: The National owes a lot of its popularity and success to online media such as blogs and Myspace.
Dessner: I think it’s just the most important way people find music now; blogs can so quickly spread awareness about a new band — it’s remarkable and really encouraging. And I really think it allows for things to develop much faster, and I think it’s a huge part of how music is shaping up now.
Popcorn Youth: With all of the positive press that you have received, do you feel that it’s because Boxer is simply a better record, because you’re more established, or because you’ve toured so much more?
Dessner: I think it’s a combination of those things. Alligator, in the end, grew to a point where it had a real underground audience and they really talked a lot, and bloggers were really supportive of it. There was a lot of anticipation for Boxer already, and then I think we also did make a record that was different than Alligator, stronger, probably. So that obviously helped with press and everything.
I think we have a really loyal following, and they’ve been with us through the years. When the new record came out, they really got behind it. From a lot of different places, there was a lot of energy about it. And also there’s touring — we go out and play shows, because first and foremost, we’re a good live band. The songs come to life and change in a live context and people respond to that. The record is one thing, but it’s another thing to see the band play the songs.
Popcorn Youth: With the success of Boxer, are you feeling the pressure to begin the next record? Do you have plans for another album yet?
Dessner: I think that we’re not going to worry about another album at least until late in the spring or summer of next year. And I can’t imagine it will take any less than what Boxer took, which was basically a year.
Popcorn Youth: From start to finish?
Dessner: Yes. I’m surprised we were even able to finish Boxer, frankly. (Laughs) For a lot of reasons it was a really hard record to make, and when we finished it I think everyone was surprised that it actually came together as well as it did. We were really searching for something that would feel different than Alligator and also exciting to us.
We threw away a lot of songs, and we rewrote a lot of songs. Actually, I think the next record might be easier, in a way, because I think we’ve passed through some phase where we were struggling. We’ve written a few songs recently that felt really easy and that I really like. We haven’t played them yet or anything, but it felt like tossing things off a little bit more casually, and I think that could be a really good thing. So I’m not that worried about it but maybe by then I will be. (Laughs)
Popcorn Youth: I understand that the songwriting process is very collaborative. Where do you fit into the process of creating a song?
Dessner: I write a lot of the initial music, and it’s based on either lead guitar or piano as the basic foundation of it. Then I’ll give it to Matt and he’ll listen to all of these sketches — they’re like a soundtrack for all of these months and months of writing lyrical ideas. Eventually, we get together as a band and really work on things together. We change things and have our own parts, like Brian’s drumming is really songwriting in a way, because he literally composes his drum parts — he doesn’t just play along. It’s very collaborative.
We have a very democratic process, and it means there can be a lot of conflict in terms of where to go with something, but it also means that everyone feels a part of it, like it’s a real band, you know? A lot of bands, they just have one songwriter, which is a good thing, as far as it being cohesive, but it can be a bad thing for the band too.
Popcorn Youth: Does the fact that Bryce is your brother make it easier to communicate during the songwriting process?
Dessner: It makes it a lot easier. My brother and I will often finish things that the other started. A lot of the songs that he wrote or that I wrote, we’ll actually add parts to them or finish them. We’ve been doing that since we were little, and I think that makes it easy.
Popcorn Youth: How does spontaneity figure into your live performances?
Dessner: There’s definitely a lot of spontaneity in terms of a dynamic shift. We’ll develop songs gradually, and they’ll change as a result of just playing them live and interacting.
There’s some improvisation, yes, but it’s more impulsive. It’s not like some guy will take a solo — it’s more like someone will make a loud clanging noise, you know? (Laughs)
Popcorn Youth: In a live setting, do you primarily play bass or guitar?
Dessner: I mostly play guitar, and sometimes I play piano and bass.
Popcorn Youth: Have you ever been to Ithaca?
Dessner: I have been to Ithaca — once, a long time ago, when I was looking at colleges. I really loved the area. One of our really close friends is starting a doctorate in Ornithology at Cornell, and she and her husband have a house, so we’re all going to come up and stay for two days, so we’re pretty excited about that, you know, for walking around town… (Laughs)
Popcorn Youth: Are you familiar with White Rabbits, the opening band?
Dessner: Yes, I randomly saw them play once, and then another time when I knew who they were. They’re a really great, young new band, with lots of energy. I don’t know their album, but I’ve seen them play a little bit and they can really play, so it should be fun.
Popcorn Youth: What are your thoughts on performing outdoors? Is there a certain kind of venue you prefer?
Dessner: Well, we played a lot outside festivals this summer, especially all over Europe. Just this Friday we played the South Street Seaport in Manhattan, and it’s nice to play outside. It’s not my favorite thing, to be honest, I prefer a club or theater, but I think the band works outside. Some bands refuse to play outside. (Laughs)
Popcorn Youth: Really? Because of the sound?
Dessner: It’s just complicated, like, I think playing indoors, it’s dark, and you’re standing where you can control the atmosphere a little bit more. Sometimes that’s better for the music, but outside is great for the audience and beautiful. We like doing it. I think we would prefer to play in a club or a theater, but I think the band is also totally a great band to play outside.
Popcorn Youth: What are some of your favorite Brooklyn venues?
Dessner: Well… in a way I think with Brooklyn, well, for better or worse, we’ve sort of outgrown most venues in Brooklyn.
Popcorn Youth: Okay, let’s include Manhattan.
Dessner: Well, I really love the Bowery Ballroom in Manhattan, we played there in May. I love Warsaw in Brooklyn, and there’s a new place called the Music Hall of Williamsburg.
Popcorn Youth: And that used to be Northsix, right?
Dessner: Right, but it’s been redone, and I have a feeling it’s going to be really nice. I also love the Mercury Lounge. It’s small, but I love that place. There’s a little place called Union Hall in Brooklyn, too. I’ve never played [there], but I’ve seen people play there and I’ve liked it.
Popcorn Youth: What records have you been listening to lately?
Dessney: I love that Neil Young Live at Massey Hall recording from the early 70s in Toronto. It’s really amazing. I like the new Spoon record a lot, I think it’s really fun. And someone gave me this record called It Will Shine by this French band Loyola, that I really like. And I really like the new St. Vincent record, Marry Me.
Popcorn Youth: It sounds like you still buy a lot of records.
Dessner: Yeah, but I buy them on iTunes way more often.
Popcorn Youth: Do you feel like record stores are in trouble?
Dessner: Independent stores, hopefully, will survive forever. I think for a record store to be great they have to have a really great selection and sell vinyl, though.
Popcorn Youth: Do you still buy vinyl records?
Dessner: I don’t actually own a record player, but we’ve noticed a lot of people have bought more vinyl copies of Boxer than Alligator, maybe because you get a free download. I also like to buy albums at Other Music in NYC and at Sound Fix in Williamsburg.
—August 20, 2007. The National will perform at the Cornell Arts Quad on Saturday, August 25. The White Rabbits will open at 6pm.