Here’s the link to read the complete article that appeared in this week’s Ithaca Times about artist Wenda Gu, who left his home of Shanghai in the mid 80s for New York City, where he has lived ever since. His exhibit “Forest of Stone Steles” will be on view at Cornell University’s Johnson Museum until March 14.
Popcorn Youth: Looking around at this exhibition, do you have teams of people who are helping you pull prints, etc.?
Wenda Gu: Of course. I have many studios — I have a home office, I have studios in Brooklyn, a studio in upstate, and two studios in Shanghai, so my major production is actually in China. And I have a team of workers where, basically, these installations that I design on a computer, I email it to them. I don’t have all these skills — I have painting skills, but with modern installations, you need to have multiple techniques, I don’t have these, so I have team workers.
Popcorn Youth: So you’re based in New York now.
Wenda Gu: I’ve been in New York for twenty years.
Popcorn Youth: How frequently do you go back to China?
Wenda Gu: About six times a year? Well, now I have more time to go back to China because my wife is an interior designer, and she opened her interior design firm in Shanghai too, so we go together to work. But my life is divided half the year in NYC and half the year I travel to different exhibitions like this. I go and travel and give lectures and have shows, most likely in ten countries a year, and I travel to all of these shows.
My production base is in China, I go back and forth quite often, I am going back to Shanghai in a few days, I have a team there. And each time is very short, maybe I stay for a week and then leave, but I don’t have much time to stay in one place.
Popcorn Youth: I noticed with this exhibition and others, you like to work on a very large, monumental scale.
Wenda Gu: Yes, yes. I think it is related to my early education. I was always impressed by the Roman empire — these great, monumental temples, and I admired China’s great wall — all of these monumental things. They have such historical power. This kind of work is not only modern, but also brings out the power from history. History and past — present and future — to bring these things together, that has always been my fantasy. And [”Forest of Stone Steles”] is only one small section — in total there are 50 stones. The rest are shown in different places. This project took me years to complete. Including the research on the kinds of stone, finding the best carvers — all of these are hand-carved. In the video, you can see the whole production process. They are made in China, because it’s easier to ship, and it’s a lot of work.
Popcorn Youth: This exhibition specifically seems to work very much with history, the interplay of history and present. These stones are translations of classical Chinese poems?
Wenda Gu: Yes, from the Tang Dynasty. Actually, from the Tang Dynasty there are 300 Tang poems that are selected as the most popular, as representative of early Chinese literature, by Asian studies departments in this country. And these are standard translations. I chose the most popular poems that were selected by Asian Students departments at universities all through America. And with these Tang poems, these translations are very specially formulated: the first few lines is the original Chinese Tang poem, the Chinese version, the original poem, and this main text [points to next portion of a stone stele] is actually the “sound translation” from the English version, so if you read the Chinese, the sound mimics it, but it creates a contemporary meaning. Then this last part [points to the far right], the meaning is a translation from this, so if you read this, it becomes a very humorous, contemporary poem. It’s completely different from this! [Points back to left side of stele] This is a translation from the English version — a “sound mimic” — still makes phrases and still makes meaning. So English speakers can compare these two. So with each translation, you lose something and you create something. Any translation between two cultures transforms or creates into other stages, and at the same time misinterpretation with the audience is involved. That is our reality with cultural exchange. I think this work has the depth of cultural translation. So after each translation you see, look back and forth — the meaning completely changes.
Popcorn Youth: Conceptually speaking, the ink prints represents yet another stage of change.
Wenda Gu: Yes, and this in particular, is a very refined Chinese art format. Many old calligraphies disappear, but the good calligraphy, once they carve it on stone, it is saved. So you don’t see the original writing, you can see the calligraphy through the stone prints, so it is a kind of historical preservation.
Popcorn Youth: Like what can happen as the result of history — the process of writing something down, passing of information, what happens when you keep track of something…
Wenda Gu: Yes, the paintings, the calligraphy, is paper-based. And paper is easily destroyed. Stone is saved, but of course stone carvings depend on how skilled the carver is. The question is, how much authenticity can remain after the carving, after the calligraphy pieces.
Popcorn Youth: And you make multiple editions of each ink rubbing?
Wenda Gu: Yes, I make multiple editions, it’s just like prints, with limited editions, and I’m making a beautiful big book. These are flat, and I’m also going to make an accordion book so you can extend it. So this whole production is kind just a painting — it covers everything. It’s a kind of production.
Popcorn Youth: Observing works like these, does the audience play a certain kind of role in interpretation? In participation?
Wenda Gu: My view is as a “creator” but I am actually only half of the creator — once the work I finish is displayed in public, the audience is the second part of the creator, because the people look at the work with their different backgrounds, their different educations, and they see these things maybe totally different than what I want them to see, so when my work is finished in public, the audience actually continues to be the creator. I am just the initiator, to initiate certain things; the appreciation becomes invention, too.
Popcorn Youth: Well, you are definitely an artist who enjoys recognition throughout the globe. Have you noticed a different kind of reception or audience in America versus China?
Wenda Gu: Sure. Even in the same place, the reaction to my works is different. Traditionally, artists would be upset if audiences interpreted it differently from what the artists wishes them to. But today, I think, from my point of view, I believe that the audience has the right to create their own interpretation. That is the joy of our work. So for the audience to follow the artist’s direction, for me, that is a little bit dull. With good work, you solicit the audience to reinterpret based on what you give to them.
Popcorn Youth: Do you find that the audience of Americans interpret your work very different from your Chinese audience?
Wenda Gu: It depends on the work. Some works have more cultural or historical ingredients to it. It would take more education to understand the Chinese format; for instance, this installation would take much more education than the hair piece upstairs. And also let’s say that this is dragon body, fish scales, [points to sides of the stone steles] but if you don’t know typical Chinese stone carvings, you wouldn’t know or interpret it as a dragon body because it’s abstract. Only as fish scales. People would think maybe it’s a tree, skin, bark, but actually this is a dragon body. But it depends on your situation, nothing can compare, this audience or this group or this location, like, “this is deeper, this is shallower,” because they all enter the situation differently.
Popcorn Youth: And the dragon body is part of the mythology that you’re working with?
Wenda Gu: Yes; it kind of has no specific definition, it’s kind of abstract. The dragon represents the power of the kingdom of the past, and also kind of eccentric, creative energy.
Popcorn Youth: Are there are any countries that you feel you have a particularly strong relationship with? Italy, Germany, United States…?
Wenda Gu: My special relationship is mostly between China and America. I was born in Shanghai and I lived in China until I was 32, for about 21 years. In two years, my longest living place will be New York. And in two years, it will be almost equal, the same, 21 to 21! So for me, my base is in New York, and of course my origins are in China, so it’s a very interesting situation. It can be conflicting, in terms of culture, society, social structure, because during my time in school I was trained with Marxist ideology, and in New York I was trained with capitalism. So the two contradict, but both together gave me a lot of strength. When you know both, you can compare.
Popcorn Youth: And that tension can be seen in your work.
Wenda Gu: Yes, my work is very reflective of that situation.
Popcorn Youth: Would you specifically categorize yourself as a Chinese artist or an American artist?
Wenda Gu: I’m both. The thing is, in this postmodern era, with immigration, cultural diaspora, on one side I gain strength because I know both sides, but then I also have a disadvantage, because when I go to China, people think I am Americanized. Here, people may think I am in a third group — not American born, not quite Americanized. It’s a benefit and a disadvantage both, fifty-fifty. So it creates a uniqueness.
Popcorn Youth: Some critics and writers say that with recent globalization and commercialization — Chinese art as a hot commodity — some Chinese artists may or may not pander to a Western audience, Western art buyers, Western critics. Have you experienced this pressure at all?
Wenda Gu: Yes, of course, of course. I deal with it, like with auction art, Chinese contemporary art is kind of “hip”, you know, “hot.” I think that I experience these things very dramatically, and not a lot of people know it — they talk about Chinese artists and Chinese art as being so marketable, but when I came from China, the period was still Communist, Socialist, I was an underground artist. Actually, my name was on the government blacklist until the year 2000, when the Chinese government changed the system. So the government now supports contemporary Chinese art, but before the year 2000, contemporary art was not welcomed, so I was labeled as one of the underground artists that got all the troubles and criticisms. And when I came to the West at the beginning, I felt I had such a freedom to express myself; but until recently, the hot market is also because of China’s recent economy development. Without that background… I mean, let’s say I’m a Vietnamese artist, or a Taiwanese artist, I probably won’t have that kind of exposure. So it’s the big country, China is doing well, Chinese artists are also promoted not only by Chinese market but from around the world, so now I feel I’m getting the benefit from being Chinese for the first time. Before, I was criticized.
Popcorn Youth: Pre-2000, what were the sorts of things that you were doing that the Chinese government didn’t support?
Wenda Gu: Mostly subject matter. If you’re not doing propaganda actions in your work, that means you’re not really listening to the government, that was in my experience. And my first solo show in my career, I was forced to close it even before the opening! And that made such a big impact in the art world in China at the time. And before I left, I was becoming an icon, a leader in the contemporary China art movement; and China started very late, it started from the early 80s, so about 20 years experience. But the contemporary art for Chinese audience is still new, it’s kind of important, you know what I mean?
Popcorn Youth: So with contemporary Chinese art now, the Chinese government is supportive, to a certain extent. As an artist do you yourself exercise any kind of self-censorship because you are aware that of the government presence?
Wenda Gu: Oh, the censorship is always there. The political system and art always have a conflict, a tension. I think with regards to the China situation today, you pretty much can do everything you want — except if your work is obviously anti-government, but even that can exist in private sections. But not a city or museum show, if you have anti-government or political content. But everything else you can pretty much do.
Popcorn Youth: But to be very famous or very well known, you would have to be in those museums or biennales…
Wenda Gu: Yes, yes. But Chinese officials now are learning to be tolerant, to a certain extent. They understand that showing in museums, if they are more agreeable, it creates a good image for them. So, I mean politicians are politicians. (Laughs) I have experienced all of these dramatic things.
Popcorn Youth: Do you collaborate with other artists?
Wenda Gu: Collaborations only in performance pieces.
Popcorn Youth: With non Chinese artists, Chinese artists?
Wenda Gu: Both, both. I have performance pieces called “Cultural Wedding.” The performance usually takes place in the museum, so the local museum would arrange the bride for me, and the bride has to be not the same race as me, so it is a “cultural wedding,” and I did six pieces in Europe, Asia, America, and China. And each town will have a bride, I act as the groom. And we write in huge calligraphy, and the bride writes her resume, and I write my resume and it’s an abstract interrace marriage.
Popcorn Youth: So your formal training was done in China.
Wenda Gu: Yes, at the National Academy. And I left school for seven years to teach.
Popcorn Youth: I read that your grandfather was a famous filmmaker in the 1920s.
Wenda Gu: Yes, that was a long time ago. He made silent films in the 20s.
Popcorn Youth: Were you ever exposed to any of his output?
Wenda Gu: I’ve only seen newspaper articles and advertisements, because the early movies were based on acid film, so if you don’t really duplicate it, it disappears. Because once I tried to get footage of my grandfather’s film; I wanted to make a collage with my new video, but I went to all the movie archives and I couldn’t find it. He did a movie, a criticism of prostitution, but China now has so much prostitution, so they tried to make a contemporary version, but I couldn’t find it.
Popcorn Youth: Did he ever talk about his filmmaking experiences?
Wenda Gu: No, he was not allowed to talk about it. Mao took over in China, so he was put in jail. So during the Cultural Revolution, my parents never told me anything about my grandfather, not a thing. So when I went to art school, my professor asked me about him, how about my grandfather, and it was only then that I started to know about my grandfather. Because my grandfather was really treated as kind of a bad person in the Cultural Revolution, they tried to not let me know, because it would be a danger to me in public.
Popcorn Youth: What about the changes in the last 20 and 30 years — you’ve seen a lot of changes in both New York City, and in Shanghai, especially culturally, commerce — do you feel any kinship with an art scene in New York? Do you feel it’s changed in the last 20 years?
Wenda Gu: Of course, I’m more accepted, in the sense that I’m more and more established. I feel the art scene is gradually open more to changes in the West and America. But I also feel that New York is getting more conservative than the time when I was there. The time I arrived in NYC, that was 1987, that was a very dangerous period — the crime rate was very high — and now New York is safe. New York is the number one safe place among any populations over a million in cities in America, and I’ve felt that change. Our market is more for contemporary art, and New York is the biggest, but I feel that our work is getting more conservative if you compare it to the late 80s.
Popcorn Youth: In terms of a specific cultural atmosphere now, especially with globalization in the 21st century, how much has the Internet influenced the direction your work has taken? Maybe the boundaries of being an American artist or a Chinese artist are different now because anybody with an Internet connection can go and experience that and be a part of that scene.
Wenda Gu: Artistically, if we talk about the changes, the time I arrived in New York, the photo and the video were not treated as “collectible art.” The photo is not a fine art, not legitimate. And also the multicultural thing was kind of hot in the 80s and 90s because it erases the pressure of cultural identity; that’s the central to my creation, because my life is based upon this, cultural identity and the crisis of identity because you’ve left your home place, and at the same time you’re not established as a person in the new system, new culture, new country. So I’ve thought of all of these questions. And also you have negative criticism in the world; “globalization as Americanization.” From my point of view, as the strongest country, of course the United States will take rule in the world. It doesn’t matter if it’s the Roman Empire in the old times or now, always the strongest country that rules has the dominating cultural, political, social systems.
Popcorn Youth: The Internet is able to level that playing field a little bit, because anyone can witness and experience those dominating trends if they have the Internet.
Wenda Gu: Yeah, yeah, and actually it’s really dramatic. So let’s say you want to show your work and in the past if a collector wanted to buy your work, they would have to fly to you to actually see the work. But now, I mean, the collector now asks to see my website! (Laughs) And the world is getting smaller.
Popcorn Youth: And that’s been in the last 8 or 10 years.
Wenda Gu: Yeah, back then, everything I would write would be with a typewriter. (Laughs)
Popcorn Youth: So do you have any ties with Cornell or Ithaca? Have you showed here in the past?
Wenda Gu: No, this is my first time. The art world has three kind of systems: one is academic, one is market and commercial gallery, and the other is museums. And I think that academic side of it is very important, so I spend more time giving lectures at different schools. And this serves to the community, it’s not just very self-centered, like “this is my creation, I’m going to sell my work.” For me, it also serves as an education to the community. Of course, when you show in a museum, you get more exposure, more of a market.
Popcorn Youth: You’re very aware of history — like studying printmaking, poetry and other ancient forms of art. What’s interesting is that your work will be available 500 or 1,000 years from now, and will be viewed as being at a very critical moment in the world. And your position, you’re in a very important place — 1,000 years from now, you will stand out as being in the forefront.
Wenda Gu: Yeah, and as a witness of change. The dilemma between China and America, the negatives and positives, the constructive and the damages, I’m really an eyewitness. (Laughs) This is fortunate, and you react one way or another because you are placed in that situation. I’m really, really lucky. My wife feels lucky too and she’s American born, but we are proof of this kind of collaboration — many papers in Shanghai actually interview her, she is called the “Shanghai daughter-in-law.” (Laughs) For me, it doesn’t matter politically to have so much conflict [in my works]. I think the artist’s goal is to try to bridge culturally, to find a more peaceful solution, instead of political ambition. So the artist can bridge these cultural things, and create a mutual understanding.
Popcorn Youth: And art itself is changing so much, too. The nature of the market, forms that are being used, like video had a certain moment, and now it’s all about going digital and multi-media; there are so many things happening so quickly. How does that effect your own process of your own work? Do you block it out or do you incorporate it?
Wenda Gu: I really incorporate it. Like the hair piece [”United Nations”], this is only one of many chain pieces — it’s been 14 years and I have had more than 4 million people contribute hair into my work from five continents. That’s part of my whole goal of “United Nations.” It’s not related to the organization United Nations, but it tries to bring all types of people into my world.
Popcorn Youth: Do you keep records of everyone that has contributed hair?
Wenda Gu: No, it’s from barber shops all over the world. Let’s say I go to Poland to do a piece — local museums will collect hair from local barbershops for my hair collections. This way, the work is completely composed of the local people, and this work is still going around the world, and I have so many monuments from so many different countries. Right now, I’m doing a piece for Dartmouth College that will exhibit over the summer — the piece will have hair from 20,000 haircuts, then it will get sent to Shanghai to finish the work.
Popcorn Youth: There is no doubt that this is a very fertile time for Chinese artists. But what would you identify as the biggest problem facing contemporary Chinese artists today?
Wenda Gu: I think that, for me, the biggest problem is at the same time a big advantage, at the same time. The differences between me and the younger generation of artists today, is that suddenly all at once they are exposed to the market. For me, the time I was there [in China], there was no single commercial gallery and I didn’t show any works in China. It was completely “art for arts sake” and there was no other purpose, I was so naïve. (Laughs) The market is all something I learned when I moved to New York. I opened my first bank account at the age of 34! I was so scared to walk into a bank. (Laughs) I was never taught these commercial matters, but now all these artists, they all know how to sell, how to self-advertise, how to promote, how to get in the market from the very beginning. And some older artists, much older than me, in their 80s and 90s, they complain that they fought their whole life, and now artists in that are 15 and 20 years old already get the same price! I mean, this is a reflection of different generations in the same period. So I’m the guy kind of in the middle, and middle has everything — you live in the capital of capitalism, and you come from kind of a totally non-capital background — old China — and I remember my studio rent was only 1 dollar when I was in China, versus New York where the rent is so high. (Laughs) So this kind of drama I experienced.
Popcorn Youth: So you do also follow comparable art scenes in Taiwan and Hong Kong as well? Is there anything comparable to what’s happening in China right now?
Wenda Gu: I think they have some similar approach. But Hong Kong obviously is smaller, you have less artists, and I don’t think there is much of a cultural scene there.
Popcorn Youth: Are there any specific artists that you pay attention to?
Wenda Gu: Taiwan has some good artists, but unfortunately for artists, becoming famous is not only dependent on if you’re doing good or bad artwork, it’s really reliant on who you represent and where you’re from. Let’s say, if China was still very poor, still in the Communist state, I don’t think I would get that much exposure. But with China today, you get much more exposure, people are much more interested, you know what I mean? So for similar artists in Taiwan today, it is unfortunate, because most of Asia’s attention is drawn to China — but there is also India and other smaller countries that almost get forgotten. Japan contemporary artists had a very good art scene in the 60s, there were many very good vanguard artists out of the Japanese contemporary art scene. But there is no way to compare to Chinese artists because China is a rising situation.
Popcorn Youth: Is this a permanent phenomenon or maybe something that is more temporary?
Wenda Gu: It depends. How much the world will pay attention to China will depend on China’s status. If the economy is going well, then the market will still go well. It depends on the situation. In the late 80s, when I first came to here, the Russian vanguard was so hot. And then ‘89 came and Russia fell apart, and there were no Russian artists to be seen. And all the American collectors that collected Russian art by these vanguard artists during the “hot period” complained because the works were all now valueless. Artists depend on the political situation. Right after the second world war, American art was nothing. It was all European art — from Paris, artists like Picasso, Matisse — and as America as a country became more powerful, American artists became more and more well known. And now the art world is dominated by American artists; it depends on the the country’s status and their cultural status, otherwise, artists cannot make a big splash. You really rely on where you are, the context of your situation.
Popcorn Youth: Apart from the issue of nationality in markets, what is your particular feeling or sense of where we are now right now in the traditions of art making? You’ve now seen a lot of art and a lot of changes in New York, and now you are armed with a whole global perspective. Where do you think the art world is right now, in terms of installation, visual, the different media, any salient trends that you’ve noticed?
Wenda Gu: I think art creation is a reflection of human development. During the Michaelangelo period, artists did have acrylic [paint], they didn’t even have oil painting. They used egg and pigment. This is reflective of human development and science at the time — they couldn’t even paint on canvas. You have to face the new concepts with a historical approach, and you always have to face modern development as well, or else you won’t succeed. Even if you create good work, you won’t succeed because you have to represent the period of time that you are in — like that identity issue, the multicultural issue is a new issue, new technology is another issue, and I try to bring all these things together. The first time I started to use human body materials, the reason is a lot of things predicted in this millennium, that this millennium is for the biological science. I mean, the computer is just a tool, and I believe that bio science will be the most striking and revolutionary to natural human beings, and that’s why I incorporate human body materials. I’m not a scientist, I am just an artist trying to interpret biological and genetic science. This is my way to approach and connect history and the future.
Popcorn Youth: A sort of return to the biological body aspect, after 30 years of radical innovation.
Wenda Gu: There’s two sides — one is the political biological thing, the multicultural issues, the political and social issues — and the other is scientific discovery. It is so striking; you have a lot of conflict between social and political issues and science issues. I mean, Darwinism still has questions today, in the education system. (Laughs) And you have to, according to your question, you have to really represent the current human development, or else you’re not in the forefront. But any modern technology does not just suddenly arrive from the sky, it has to have a trace back to the history, back to the past. So my point of view is to try to make these things connect. The works of my past and present situation and future vision all together, that’s my interpretation.
Popcorn Youth: The younger generation of Chinese artists, do you think they feel any pressure to be patriotic or nationalistic in any kind of way?
Wenda Gu: In different ways, sometimes less in one way, but more in the other way, I don’t know. Most Chinese — I’m not anymore just a pure Chinese artist, because I left for twenty years — they interpret the West and get info from the West through books. For me, it’s through actual living in the West, so it’s a little different.
Popcorn Youth: In your training in China, did you learn just about Chinese masters or also Western artists?
Wenda Gu: My mass degree was in classical Chinese painting, but I was always interested in contemporary things. So it kind of was parallel research. Actually, the contemporary things I conducted myself, and the traditional knowledge was for school requirements. There are very few Chinese contemporary artists that actually graduate with a Chinese classical training background — they’re usually mostly from oil painting or sculpture — but I was from the Chinese classical artists department. So I have been naturally related to Chinese tradition because of my formal training. So it’s another kind of extreme.
Popcorn Youth: Some of these projects you’ve been working on for 12 years. What do you have in mind for the next 10 or 20 years? Any particular concerns or goals? Projects that you feel comfortable discussing?
Wenda Gu: I have many, many new projects. (Laughs) I am doing a series of neon sculptures that bridge old scholarly approaches and commercial cosmopolitan pop culture. Old scholarly traditions are getting less and less appreciated by the young generation, so in order to bring it into modern life, I use neon as a modern approach. And then I am planning a series of lantern projects; I got approval from the Dutch government in 2008 to cover a church with Chinese lanterns. It’s a big budget because the whole building has to first be covered by a screen and then you have to hang all the lanterns. It’s a big project and you need a contractor to get all the security approved, it’s not that easy. But that’s my next big series.