Yet another interview in what has come to be a long weekend of transcribing and listening to poorly recorded telephone conversations. I recently talked to Bob Nanna, who was fundamental to the emergence of this thing we like to call “emo” — as the frontman of Braid (as well as later work with Hey Mercedes and, most recently, City on Film), Nanna participated heavily in the midwestern/Chicago scene of hardcore and emo. Braid has since called it quits, but their spirit still lives on in Nanna — at last night’s City on Film show at Ithaca College, Nanna played acoustic versions of some classic Braid songs, including personal fave “I’m Afraid of Everything.” He also played hilarious yet poignant covers of songs by Queen and Dexy’s Midnight Runners (and a great, brief ode to blogs). “Emo” may be an entirely different beast than what it was in 1986 — or even 1996 — but Nanna is still around to remind us of how good it was, and how good it can still be. Well played, Nanna. Well played.
In the interview below, I probe him for a brief history of the cultural atmosphere in mid-90s Illinois, and get his thoughts on what emo means in the 21st century, the magic of live shows, and Dischord greats Rites of Spring and Jawbox. Nanna doesn’t even get phased when briefly interrupted by a policeman.
RIYL: Sunny Day Real Estate’s “Diary.” Jawbreaker. The Promise Ring. Joan of Arc. Fugazi. Texas is the Reason.
Required Listening: Braid — Frame & Canvas (1998, Polyvinyl); The Age of Octeen (1996, Mud)
Fun fact for shoppers and music-geeks alike: Nanna writes songs inspired by graphics on Threadless tees. He has written 133 “mini-songs” (!) for the site, a few of which he played last night.
And lastly: There’s a surprisingly good entry on emo on Wiki, which includes this amazing quote by Guy Piccioto of Rites of Spring and Fugazi on beginning the “emo” trend:
“I don’t recognize that attribution. I’ve never recognized ‘emo’ as a genre of music. I always thought it was the most retarded term ever. I know there is this generic commonplace that every band that gets labeled with that term hates it. They feel scandalized by it. But honestly, I just thought that all the bands I played in were punk rock bands. The reason I think it’s so stupid is that - what, like the Bad Brains weren’t emotional? What - they were robots or something? It just doesn’t make any sense to me.”
And now, onto the interview with Bob:
PY: The word “emo” was coined in a 1985 interview with Rites of Spring — it was a word their fans used to describe their music. Did that wave of DC hardcore, especially Rites of Spring and Fugazi and Jawbox, play a role in what you were thinking about or doing when you were in Braid?
Bob Nanna: Yeah, definitely. I think we were influenced the most by bands from the DC area, mostly Fugazi. I mean we were all influenced by bands from San Francisco and Oakland area as well, like Jawbreaker. And it’s weird how those bands like Jawbox and Fugazi sound nothing like Jawbreaker, yet those kind of bands all get lumped into this “emo” category. But you know, at the time being called “emo” for all of the bands that I loved like Jawbox and Fugazi and Rites of Spring — it was kind of just the new thing. And maybe because so many bands were grouped into that, all these new bands came out and they just got thrown in, categorized, so really it just made [emo] in into this catch-all, so it’s weird.
PY: At what point did the term “emo” become a legitimate detour from hardcore? Today, is it more of a media slogan?
Nanna: Yeah, but I think it started a long time ago; it’s not just now, it’s been like that for at least six years, or since the media in various forms grouped a bunch of bands and just made it kind of . . . meaningless. (Laughs).
PY: At what point in your personal narrative was “emo” a term that was even used to describe music at all? Had you always been conscious about it?
Nanna: I think it was something that I read in Maximum RocknRoll, or HeartattaCk, that was a big zine around that time that we all made sure we read when it came out to check out a bunch of bands. And there was a point and time, a year or two into Braid’s existence, where Maximum RocknRoll made a conscious effort to review all of these quote unquote emo bands, like Braid for instance. At that point, it dawned on all of us that we were getting grouped in with this . . . I always wanted to say that we were more punk that pop, we certainly weren’t playing music that we expected to get played on the radio. Weird time signatures, and screaming a little bit, and at that time the radio would go nowhere near that stuff, so Maximum RocknRoll doing that really made us scratch our heads and ask why were getting grouped in with all of this — and what’s wrong with it, and what are the grounds, and how they can set out a form of music with a guitar that wasn’t called punk, just because it wasn’t overly political or something, but it still was really underground. I think that was ‘95 or ‘96.
PY: Now, ten years later, it seems to have strayed even further from what you experienced in the mid-90s. It’s a completely different thing.
Nanna: Yeah, I totally agree.
PY: How does that make you feel?
Nanna I don’t know, I guess we were kind of bummed out by it, because I’ve seen a lot of my favorite bands get snatched up by majors looking to capitalize on certain styles or songs. And it upsets me because they’re my favorite bands and it’s just a marketing aspect. I don’t pay too much attention to it anymore, the marketing and business side of stuff, so it doesn’t really bum me out anymore, because bands nowadays that get grouped into that category have chosen that path, you know? It’s not something that was put on them, it was something where they said, “Oh, we want to be emo band” and then a, b, c, and d happened.
PY: You were influenced by the Dischord scene, and you mentioned San Francisco, but did you feel closest to the Chicago scene, like Steve Albini, Touch and Go, or what about other regional scenes, like San Diego with Drive Like Jehu —
Nanna: Oh yeah, definitely. We definitely were.
PY: How can that sort of awareness happen without the Internet, finding out about scenes that seemed sort of contained?
Nanna: Well, at that time, if I can reveal how old I am (Laughs), there was no Internet. So we found out by reading Maximum RocknRoll and HeartattaCk, and they had a section where city by city they would talk about the scene, so San Francisco, Chicago, NYC, Gainesville . . . We knew what bands from Gainesville sounded like and all the bands from Chapel Hill. We were part of more the Champaign-Urbana category than the Chicago category, although I think that the two were pretty similar. I don’t know how much we were into Steve Albini, although we actually did record with Albini; so there was some crossover, but as far as musically, I was more influenced by bands from Chicago who were influenced by the bands from DC and California, if that makes any sense at all. (Laughs)
We had always gone to shows. Even back when I went to more punk rock and underground shows since ‘91, bands like Jawbreaker and Jawbox and Fugazi I could go see them play in Chicago at least every month and I would buy tickets to go . . . and usually it would be a show that I didn’t know much about, but I knew the bands were good enough. It was really not only the music, but seeing the bands live, in small places, where you could go up and talk to those people, and they were willing to talk to you, there wasn’t any kind of separation between artist and audience at that point, and that just is inspirational as the actual music itself. It was the fact that they were in the van, and you didn’t need a tour bus, and you didn’t have to play in front of tons of people, there were all of these bands doing their own thing, booking their own tour, driving themselves and staying at peoples houses, and actually talking to fans, that was important.
PY: Seems like a lot of those bands were completely unpretentious in their approach to music. Were you influenced at all by Kansas City bands like Boys Life, Shiner, Giants Chair?
Nanna: Yeah, definitely. Especially Boys Life. It’s weird though, because the bands that came out of Kansas City all sound really different to me — Shiner doesn’t sound like Boys Life, and neither of them sound like the Get Up Kids. So they were closer to me than DC and California, those bands came through much more. Actually, I would put Kansas City bands as coming around more when Braid was coming around; it was already past the point where I was starting to play shows, so at that point I was playing shows with Boys Life.
PY: So they were more peers than influences?
Nanna: Yeah, peers.
PY: Were you influenced by the Champaign band The Poster Children? They were before Braid’s time, right?
Nanna: Yeah, but they were still sort of active and at the point where they just wanted to be with some major; we played a show or two with them in Champaign, but they weren’t really that much of an influence on me per se because I came into that pretty late, the Poster craze. Even [Champaign band] Hum, people would just go nuts for them in Champaign. And while I like those bands, I came into that late, so it never really had an effect on the way that I approached music.
PY: Is there something about the Midwestern experience, or being around Chicago in the 90s that was integral to what Braid sounded like or could be? Do you imagine that Braid would have been totally different if you lived in, say, NYC?
Nanna: Yeah, definitely. I mean, we’re right in the middle of the country, and there’s not really much else besides . . . I don’t know; we have bands coming through all the time, from the East coast and from the West coast — everyone stops through Chicago. If a band goes on tour, they always hit Chicago, so I’ve been able to see a lot of different bands. And I think it was kind of integral to Braid’s syle to see bands that had this really angular sound, interesting time signatures, and kind of interesting grooves from DC, and also the bands from California, they had real story-based lyrics and dramatics — you could understand what they were talking about because they were telling stories almost. You know? And so we kinda tried to mix the two.
PY: What influences your decision to cover songs? I’ve heard you cover everything from The Smiths to Billy Joel to The Pixies to They Might Be Giants.
Nanna: There’s always a reason for covering songs. I mean, those are our favorite bands pretty much (laughs) so I like learning them and playing them as opposed to what I’m doing [in Braid]; I’m still in the process of learning. I mean, I’m making a list of my top 100 favorite songs at the time. I made it in 2001 with the intention of learning all 100 and recording them. I thought it would be fun to learn and play my favorite songs but I also was aware that it might open my mind in playing abilities, in things I might not normally do when I’m writing a song. Interesting chords or chord progressions or vocal melodies, and it helps a lot. Even the process is kind of changing so that it fits what you can do, especially vocally. Taking a huge song like “Come on Eileen” and making an acoustic version of it. It’s challenging, and these are my favorite songs.
PY: So is there an element of recontextualizing, by making a pop hit acoustic?
Nanna: Yeah, yeah, definitely. It’s a fun challenge.
PY: Whatever project you’re in, do they fill different very specific creative needs you have as a musician? And the chronology of City on Film, it started when Braid was still going in the mid 90s, so why take this back up now?
Nanna: I started [City on Film] on a Braid tour because I had some ideas and I wanted to get them down. I have this problem where I have all these ideas for songs, and I record part of it, and then I forget about it. So I try to get better, seeing through an actual idea. I don’t have as much a problem with getting more ideas than I do about forgetting the old ones. Now that they’re gone, it’s just like, they could have been the coolest things ever, it could have been the big hit. (Laughs) So that’s kinda why I started City on Film, and to be honest, most of the City on Film stuff could have been Braid songs, but they came at a time when Braid was not touring, on a break. And so I kinda got it going a little bit during Hey Mercedes, but it was mainly just out of writing songs when I wasn’t on tour, and so now that Hey Mercedes is gone, I’ve sort of taken it into a little higher gear, just because I don’t have a band and I’m not on tour. I’m just doing this on my own.
(Pauses) It’s not illegal to talk on your cell phone while driving in New York, is it? (Starts talking to someone else)
PY: Um, actually, it is —
Nanna: (Returns to cell phone) The cop just looked straight at me. (Pauses) I’ve already been pulled over and got parking tickets, it just sucks.
PY: Um, ok, well to wrap things up, I noticed that you yourself have a blog that you update and I was wondering what your thoughts were on things like mp3 blogs and that culture of bloggers, and what that’s done with how we interact and approach new music.
Nanna: I love it. I mean I used to do an mp3 blog for a little while, and I think it’s awesome to get people exposed to new music. I mean, it can get hairy with copyrights and stuff, but if people are only posting one or two mp3s . . . If you download one of the songs, and if you really like the band, introduce me to new music, I’m all for it. I love the idea.
PY: What about iPods? Do you think record stores are a dying business? Are CDs irrelevant?
Nanna: Maybe . . . its just that [record stores] need to adapt a little bit, somehow, I mean I don’t have a whole answer to the question, but I don’t know. I’m not totally pleased with record stores getting phased out almost because you can get records online or you can get it downloaded to you. There’s something really great about having an LP. Maybe it’s because I’m old, but I like having an LP, I like having a record; you have to take it out and put it on the thing and you cant jump around, or skip, so the whole process is special. And then you have to get up and change the side, and they’re so fragile. I know music is like that, you have to be really careful, maybe you tend to appreciate it more. A lot of the time when you download mp3s and stuff you know that the sound quality is shit or they misname things; you really don’t know what you’re getting. [iPods] destroyed the idea of an album sequence, which I always cared about, but not really so much anymore. Because I do it myself, I get an album or I get a CD, I’ll put it on my iPod, and usually I just have it on shuffle, so I don’t even hear the songs in the order they want me to hear them. You don’t have to listen to the songs you don’t like or the songs you don’t like as much, you know?