[Text by Luke Z. Fenchel; From the Ithaca Times]
Anyone who maintains that a white man can’t sing the blues has likely never come across “Spider” John Koerner. A Rochester native who was integral to the Minneapolis, Minnesota folk scene of the ’60s, Koerner has spent much of his career creating albums that inspired generations of white folk artists to explore their roots.
Bob Dylan, who encountered him in the Dinkytown neighborhood near the University of Minnesota, sang his praises in Chronicles; so have artists as diverse as Bonnie Raitt and David Bowie. Unlike the popular pop adaptations of stolen and reinterpreted songs in the folk style that were passed off as real folk music (from the Kingston Trio, the Weavers and Peter, Paul and Mary), Koerner and his associates Dave “Snaker” Ray and Tony “Little Sun” Glover made music that felt authentic. Though Ray passed away some years back, Koerner has performed consistently both with Glover and also solo, which is a boon to those who remember the ’60s as well as those who experienced it on TV.
This Thursday, Jan. 10, Rootabaga Boogie Productions brings “Spider” John to Castaways for a show at 8pm. “Old Time” revivalists and straw beating foot-stompers The Chicken Chokers open, and will play a second set with Koerner.
As any self-respecting listener is well aware, the history of American popular music is a rather messy affair, characterized by a rape and tiptoe two-step that’s anything but pretty. What’s more difficult to admit is that sometimes both tendencies appear in the foreground at once; when a British “blues” band co-opts a Robert Johnson tune in full, it’s not entirely clear whether they’re playing tribute or trampling or both. It may be better to trust your gut, and it’s hard to trust the saccharine cleanliness of blues better heard in the parlor than in the barroom. And the brilliant thing about Koerner, Ray and Glover is that there appears to be less of a gulf between them and Huddie Ledbetter than with many of their Minnesota contemporaries. Blues is a dirty affair, after all, and Koerner’s music is anything but pristine.
Woe to the musician whose second album was praised in the liner notes for its “real understanding of Negro musical styles” and how it is “unbelievable that any white musician could come so close to the sound of Negro performance.” But it’s a challenge to listen to “Hangman” and “Ramblin’ Blues” from Blues, Rags & Hollers and distinguish the Ledbetter from the Koerner.
Speaking to him from his home on New Year’s Eve, Koerner admitted that the whole thing was, in a sense, pretty “weird.” “It’s kind of strange that at that age, I wanted to act like a black guy. And be like black guys — some of whom didn’t know how to read. Here we were, college kids, who got it in our mind to do like it was in the songs — drinking and partying, and chasing women.” Whatever the intentions, though, Koerner, Ray and Glover created music that went beyond mirroring the idiom of blues to create something wholly original within a tradition. It is nothing less than inspiring that Koerner is keeping the flame burning.
I spoke with “Spider” John on the telephone from his home in Minneapolis. We covered a lot of ground, stretching from the ’60s folk revival to present day Minnesota politics.
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Popcorn Youth: Thanks for taking the time to talk with me on New Year’s Eve. Do you have any plans for later tonight?
“Spider” John Koerner: Yeah, stay at home. Well, in my younger days I probably would have been out for looking for some action; but I’m a bit beyond that now.
Popcorn Youth: Well I know that it’s certainly still impressive that you’re out playing live [Koerner had a show last night]. What makes you keep it up?
Koerner: Well, Tony [Glover] and I play occasionally. To tell the truth, I’m a bit run out on it all, and I go out to make my money. On the other hand, in the past some years, I have found that around here, I wind up with a lot of younger people who have gotten quite interested in the performances. It kind of surprises me, but I’m glad that’s happening, so that part’s okay. But basically, if I were rich, I’d probably not play at all.
Popcorn Youth: Well, I hate to say it, but I guess we’re lucky for your misfortune. You were wildly influential on the folk revival movement. What musicians influenced you?
Koerner: Well, I actually didn’t start playing music until left Rochester. It was when I was at the University of Minnesota, and after about a year or half of being in school, that some guys showed me folk music — and that was the beginning of one thing and the end of another.
At the beginning I picked up a folk book and I didn’t know a lot about it. But I began hanging out with people who were interested in it. A major change came in the fall of ‘59 which was the beginning of coffee houses and folk music and all that business. Bob Dylan was part of it at the time, which was kind of interesting. I ran into Dave Ray, and he had a thing about the blues, especially Leadbelly. That kind of got me interested in that strain of music. We then met with Tony who was a friend of Dave’s in NYC. We started there — being into this blues thing by collecting records, and learning the folk style. Sometime later, a record came out. Sam Charters put out “country blues,” a variety of old records, some were jug bands, and some other stuff, and that really provided me with a vision of how things were, and how you could make things up.
Popcorn Youth: Back then, was the scene as fragmented as it is now? That is, were there “old time” players as opposed to “blues” players or “bluegrass” or “ragtime” or was the scene so new that it was mixed up?
Koerner: Well first, the scene didn’t have any “old time” folks; just younger folks learning the folk music stuff. We would get together to learn songs, and party, drink Chianti. And for some people there was a little bit of a political field, but not everybody by any means. Later on I wound up exploring some of the older guys who would play at festivals. It was very rich that way.
Popcorn Youth: You know, when my parents would play your records for me, they would compare Blues, Rags & Hollers with different and sillier stuff. A lot of what could be construed as “folk music” in their opinion was really “pop” music.
Koerner: Like the Kingston Trio?
Popcorn Youth: Exactly! And what is amazing to me, and this might just be their political standpoint, but there might be a “real-ness” to it… a continuation of a tradition, you know? You were immersing yourself in the blues. Was it natural to do that, or did you feel that you were breaking from other white musicians?
Koerner: You know, I don’t really know quite what happened. Except that there was a particular attraction to the blues stuff. I remember the first time heard any of it, was from this guy, Josh White. And he was kind of slick in a way, in the way he did it. But, he definitely had the knack, and it blew my mind — it bent my brain and my soul a little bit. And that’s what caught me up — more than other “folk” music at the time.
Popcorn Youth: Right, authenticity is a funny word. At the time you first put out records, white blues acts were more a novelty than anything else. But if you listen to your music, “white” is significant mostly in looking at your photos but nothing else.
Koerner: I don’t understand the psychology of it, but somehow we decided to imitate these guys down to the note. And we decided to go out and drink and party, and chase women just like they did in the songs and all kind of shit. And when I look at it now, it seems weird to tell you the truth.
The whole thing was weird. Eventually, you know, I decided to abandon the blues. In 1972 I quit music forever — which lasted for about a year. And when I picked up again, I decided that I wasn’t going to try to be like a black guy anymore and play the blues. And what I decided to do instead was to take a folk music book, and I started looking through and realized that a lot of the material was good stuff — good poetry and good stories. And I decided to take these songs, and lay it over the style I picked up from playing the blues. And it wasn’t blues anymore, but it was something different. And that period lasted for about ten years. And when I did it, it pissed some people off — but I got better at it, and the eventual result is that people are interested in it.
Popcorn Youth: Can you tell me about the Minneapolis scene? How did it compare to Cambridge’s or New York’s the Village?
Koerner: The Boston/Cambridge scene was king of it all. Boston was where everyone came through. Played a few places in NYC, the Gaslight. The scene in MN was much smaller than that, there were a couple of places shifted from Dinkytown to the West Bank, EXTEMPORARE, some other little spots. Ten O’ Clock Scholar, wasn’t a big scene but was a developing scene, the hippie era.
Popcorn Youth: Can you give me a sense of the scene in Minneapolis? You mentioned hippies earlier — did you consider yourself a hippie?
Koerner: Well somehow, the scene in and around the University of Minnesota changed. It centered in Dinkytown and the area called the West Bank, in places like the Ten O’Clock Scholar; but as things progressed, it became more influenced by the hippie movement, and the music became more far out. I never was a hippie, Ray claimed to be a hippie. The scene here — like the West Bank area — was the best of the times, lot of bullshit like everything else. Artistic things were happening. Could even leave your wallet on the bar and you might get it back.
Popcorn Youth: Speaking about the scene in that area, I recently read Chronicles, by Bob Dylan, who spoke very highly of you in passing. What was your reaction to that?
Koerner: Somebody loaned me the book, and I read it. He treated me very well, I have to say. Either he had a better memory than I or he exaggerated, but I was pleased about what he had to say. It was all about the Dinkytown days, and I don’t remember everything he was talking about but in general it was all true.
Popcorn Youth: Speaking of Dinkytown, how are things progressing on that bridge?
Koerner: You know, it’s just a mess! Just like everything else, it changed some things and other things it didn’t. They’re gonna try to get it up by next Christmas, and some people think that perhaps they should take it a bit slow. Like in music, sometimes it’s just best to take it slow, and change your course. By now, everyone has adjusted their routes. It used to be my route to the lumber yard, but now I just take another route.
“Spider” John Koerner will play at Castaways this Thursday, Jan. 10. The show will begin at 8pm.
